Steering Rack

[Crazy Dave]

I have ripped the power steering rack out of my wreck and put it into the rally car. The power steering rack has 3 turns lock to lock and the standard one had 4 so should make a bit of difference. I am not mounting the pump so the steering will be heavier but I will update after Taree to let you know what I think. Now Ihave to work out if all I have to do is block the holes or connect them together for oil to move freely. Anyone now how the power steering rack oil system works without a pump on it.

[ae86trueno]

Will it work at all with no oil flow ??
We had our pump fail at a khana last year and we couldnt even steer it was that heavy.
We ripped the power steering rack out of ours and put in a standard, its much nicer.

Ben.

[matt mead]

:eek: dont say that ben, that thing was a really big pain to put in and my back still hurts :p

[Crazy Dave]

Worse case I will have to get a pump organised for it, as I like the idea of a quicker rack, especially at motorkhanas. It was so much easier with power steering but at slow speeds it will be a killer on the arms. Still haven't driven it yet so tell you soon what I think.

[Crazy Dave]

Feels good so far without the pump. Maybe because you don't have to push heaps of fluid around. It is heavier than standard, but is not overly so.

Will find out at Taree what it is like on dirt.

[Bevan-L]

Feels good so far without the pump. Maybe because you don't have to push heaps of fluid around. It is heavier than standard, but is not overly so.

Will find out at Taree what it is like on dirt.

Thats great news.... im gonna be on the lookout for a PS rack.... found out the bushes are gone in my non ps rack so theres some play in the rack..
what a better way to sort it out by fitting the PS at the same time instead of refurbishing the non ps rack on the car now.

[Damo666]

How much weight do you save by not fitting the pump & lines as well?

[Crazy Dave]

The power steering rack with no pump is really good and I defintiely recomend it to others. The trick is to remove the excess oil from the rack by turning the rack from side to side and then attach the 2 outlets together just in case any oil gets picked up to the piston. When a pump fails normally you are having to push the oil around which is why they are heavy and if you blocked the hole with oil in it you would nearly lock it up. Once the oil is out it is still heavier than standard but only due to being quicker. It feels really nice at speed. Would be muscle building at motorkhana speeds but is still not that bad when driving around the car parks etc. Feels like a non p/s car with really big tyres on it. Thumbs up anyway. :D

[Bevan-L]

Fully sick! :D

What would you expect to pay for a PS rack these days for an excel...
I've got 2 non ps racks that i wanna sell off and then use the $$ for ps rack.

[Andrei]

Thumbs up anyway. :D

Thanks for sharing the experience, Dave.

Good to know draining the fluid will help. Last year I was experimenting trying to run without pump belt, it was way too heavy. I had to put the belt back and run PS since then.

I am thinking of another option - adjusting the return valve in the hydro pump, which reduces the pressure in the system.
Less pressure, less power assist, more feedback from the road. “Semi-power-steering?”

(For now I want to ignore the weight save and simplicity benefits of not having a pump, just from the drivability point.)

Any thoughts?

[Glenn]

Andrei,

I think that the semi power steering option has some merit. If you're convinced that you still need some power assistance, then it might be the best option.

My view of the power steering/manual steering debate is as follows:

Manual steering is the way to go because:

Gives better steering feel at speed - you need to place these cars fairly precisely on the road to get the most out of them - maximising corner speed is the primary goal - so precision in the steering system (which includes the fidelity of the feedback to the driver) has a role to play here.
Simpler/more reliable - less things to go wrong
Less weight
Less mechanical drag
More front end grip under acceleration - OK, you might need to come on a journey with me on this one :) ....Without the aid of an LSD, maximising grip at the front end is crucial to the performance of an Excel as a rally car. I believe that manual steering has a very slight advantage over power steering in this regard. I believe that it allows you to be more delicate with regards to how the wheels are actually steering, thus promoting grip. This can be illustrated by considering the power steering case. With power steering you are more likely to hold the wheel still than with manual steering primarily because it requires very little effort. That's great you might say, I can be very delicate with the steering wheel! Yes that's true, but the effect is that you aren't being delicate with the wheels that are actually doing the steering and therefore you're likely to be forcing the wheel to "steer" when it may be unnecessary (e.g. on the exit of a roughish corner). With manual steering, you're more likely to let the steering wheel (and therefore the front wheels) run a bit and find their own path. Doing this avoids instantaneous steering effort that could detract from the traction effort of the front tyres. This is especially important at those times where the road surface is roughish, when you haven't got your corner speed quite right and whenever you've got to exit one of those pesky uphill corners. This is all my opinion and may make very little difference, but remember, 0.1s/km = 12ish seconds by the end of the rally...it all adds up.
We don't use our cars to do the shopping, who cares about the weight of the steering when you're doing 5km/h
Most people who come from a RWD background dread torque steer, but it's not that bad in reality in an open diff car....with an LSD it's another story and I'd be going for power steering in that case.
This is a sport! It's not f###ing tiddlywinks. If you can't steer one of these things for 30km without power steering then it's time to do some training.


Cheers

Glenn

[fro]

Most people who come from a RWD background dread torque steer, but it's not that bad in reality in an open diff car....with an LSD it's another story and I'd be going for power steering in that case.

The 180B hardly has light steering, but the torque steer on the road in the Hyundai is certainly noticeable.

Still:
This is a sport! It's not f###ing tiddlywinks. If you can't steer one of these things for 30km without power steering then it's time to do some training.


Thanks. I'll just 'Toughen Up, Princess", and get the car out there as soon as I can afford to.

I take it from the above that your car doesn't have operative power steering, Glenn? ;)

[Crazy Dave]

The argument with the rack is not about power steering or not, it is about wether to run the power steering rack or the manual rack. With the power steering rack, running it without the pump, removing most of the oil and connecting the lines to each other, make it a manual rack, the difference being is that one is quicker. The question you must face is do you want the quicker rack or the slower rack, and in this case it is the standard manual rack that is the light easier to drive option. Weight between the 2 is diddly squat andwith no power assistance, feel is about the same.

There may be some adjustment for the driver, especially at low speed and it will be much harder in a motorkhana on the arms, but I am not very fit at the moment and I survived Taree with it and at speed it is not that bad.

The big advantage is it is so much quicker to catch the thing when the rear end steps out. You get it to opposite lock a lot quicker and providing your foot got to flatten the throttle, and you start chanting "come on girl, you can do it" it seems easier to pull out of a spin. A lot of that was because my left foot was to slow getting to the brake pedal after the down change, but I need to work on that.

I think the P/S rack as a manual rack is great, and after having now used both, definitely prefer it. Nobody else has said that they have used it like that yet.

[ernysp76]

Hal Moloney, who has rallied for many years in P76's and in several round Australia's has always had a non-power steer power steer rack, if you know what I mean. He likes the quickness of the power steer rack and the feel of not having power assistance. It will be too late to try this for Bega but I can see where Glen is coming from and it makes sense. The other way to steer is with literally less grip on the steering wheel Ari used to steer with his finger tips in Power assisted power steer cars, this gave him the necessary feel without the effort.

[Curly]

This is one of the next things we have planned for our khana x3 - but can someone confirm the best way to de-power the rack?

Will I need a tool to flare the line in order to connect the two sides of the rack?

Should we drain the rack as much as possible, or leave 50,70,90% of the fluid in there?

Cheers!

Curly.

[Mooa42]

This is one of the next things we have planned for our khana x3 - but can someone confirm the best way to de-power the rack?

Will I need a tool to flare the line in order to connect the two sides of the rack?

Should we drain the rack as much as possible, or leave 50,70,90% of the fluid in there?

Cheers!

Curly.
If you are careful you can bend up one of the existing pipes to fit, (which I did to test it, but it is a bit messy). With the oil, I probably left about 20% in, as it only really needs to lubricate where the rack meets the pinion and a bit through the seals. I have now had a pipe made up to connect the two sides together but they couldn't do the flares the same as the factory. (this doesn't matter because only air passes through mine). Just make sure you leave room for it to clear the rack mount part of the firewall and make sure you grab the brackets and mount off the PS rack because the passenger side bush and clamp are different to the manual rack.

I also removed the internals from the rack head, (just unbolt it and pull them out) and filled the holes with silastic.

I am not sure why people think they are heavy to steer, I had my suspension done at the same time and they replaced the bearing at the top of the strut and mine is now actually lighter than it was with the manual rack. It's great for motorkhana's too, dirt and black stuff, I love it! A must do mod I reckon.

[Curly]

Cool, thanks. Hopefully we'll get the time to give this a shot on the weekend.

[skypilot]

http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v323/55/96/1130672328/n1130672328_142459_6580.jpg

http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v323/55/96/1130672328/n1130672328_142460_6931.jpg

http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v323/55/96/1130672328/n1130672328_142461_7238.jpg

http://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v323/55/96/1130672328/n1130672328_142463_7893.jpg

Rough I know but I have another two racks to play with, there is no pressure through the hose just air.

Justin

[ernysp76]

Thanks Justin your pics and Tony's discription and it all makes sense, Qld and Vic, NSW coming together:grouphug:. Ahh.

[Damo666]

Sorry to drag up an old thread, but I'm just about to stick one of these in the car.

Whats the go with the fluid - should I leave a little in there for lubrication, as previously suggested, ior should I pump out as much as physically possible before joining the lines?

[Crazy Dave]

I was advised to pump out whatever comes out when you spin the rack from side to side. There will be plenty left for lubrication.

[paulie]

That's what I did too, though the wheels haven't been back on the ground to test it yet!

Paulie

[Damo666]

Thanks gents, I've pumped it all out - I'm not sure if it is just wishful thinking (or my memory playing tricks, the car hasnt left the garage since the Bay!), but it does feel quite a bit quicker, with almost no added weight in the steering.

[Curly]

We depowered our rack recently, however I didn't drain hardly any fluid out.

Threw the car on the trailer and ran an autocross, only to find that the steering was very heavy and had lots of kickback (possibly due to a bung front shock or two). Put it this way, I had cuts and bruises on my hands from hanging on to the thing.

Drained the fluid properly on the weekend and it feels much better already. Fingers crossed.

[wagonist]

How does it go if the lines that come out of the rack head are joined together instead of the mid rack lines?

I'm currently driving around in a PS equipped Accent, & there's absolutely NO way that this can be any good in a rally car. It's just way too light. It's almost impossible to tell where the front wheels are placed on the tarmac, let alone on gravel.
My normal road car is a Turbo 4wd Toyota import & the PS on that is still too light, but infinitely better than the Accent.

I've been tossing up which way to go as I have 2 non-PS racks, plus one PS rack at home.:confused:

[Mark H]

Rather than interfere with John E's search for a power steering setup, I thought it might be worth resurrecting this thread.

Has anyone else had a change of heart on the use of power steering?
Has anyone had issues running the power steering, belts coming off etc?
Who uses power steering and who doesn't?

[Grumblebum]

Hi All I removed the PS in the Grumbomobile when I fitted the twincam[8/96 build date] Steering was heavier but I have recently fitted Superpro offset castor bushes-- increasing positive castor-- resulting in lighter steering. In fact at last weekends Training day at Bagshot both David Officer and Geoff Portman remarked on the easy turn in and balance--and I run KYB's with Kings springs. The only suggestion coming out of Sunday apart from race seats was a little extra ground clearance at the front:clap:
If you run without PS you have one less thing to go wrong-but not much if anything goes wrong with the Excels and I believe that only FRO has suffered from hydraulics failure in the clutch system. Excels DNFS are usually due to driver error:potstir:
Cheers Pete

[John C]

Power steering on Kimbo's car - "and that made for a happy little vegemite"
and Daniels has had it fitted since January 2008. These both have the pumps and have never given any trouble. The white car has no pump but a power steering rack and I thought it was quite ok , next car has full power steer and we will probaly leave the pump on.:)

[Crazy Dave]

It is very much to personal taste. The cars don't rev hard enough to destroy pumps and as are reliable as we have come to expect from most things Hyundai. The steering is heavier and should get heavier with increased castor (Grumblebum, you probably did a wheel alignment and fixed up some other issues as well) but at speed you won't notice it and in fact it feels just right when pushing really hard. I find it like a go kart for those that have driven them. At slow speeds very heavy and painful but the harder you push them the better they feel. The quicker rack is far better for catching the car when the back attempts to come around pass the front (quite regularly for me) and helps when you suddenly have overcooked your approach and need to throw the car from one direction to the other etc. As for pump or not, to me (suits my personal driving style) is that it is too light and not enough feel for how much the tyres are biting as you try to get turn in. Without the pump you can feel when you go to far and the steering becomes to light so you back it of a bit while you keep washing of speed and then keep pushing the wheel tighter and tighter but with a pump it is a bit harder to feel the transition to no grip.

[Grumblebum]

Dave Your right I had a 4 wheel alignment done at a Different place since the one earlier this year and this time we found the Excel had over 2 degrees toe IN on left rear and 2.5 toe OUT on right rear- no wonder it oversteered on left sweepers:(. End result was Zero toe on rear wheels and zero camber 1mm toe out at front a bit of positive castor but cambers still need attention. I have noticed that steering at speed is a little heavier but easier at low speeds:wtf:.
By not running PS you save a little power and as we all know every little bit helps besides here I agree with Dave that there is much more FEEL with out PS.
Cheers Pete

[ernysp76]

Pete,

You'll find that the eccentric bolts on the rear suspension will be the cause of wheel alignment issues over time. After each rally I found that the rear would have moved again. The bolt threads stretch and eventually need to be replaced, I bought a couple of spare sets. They also need to be really tight.

John E

[Grumblebum]

Thanks for that John as the Grumbomobile has done over 286K it probably never had a rear wheel alignment in its life but I'll replace rear bolts/ lift front 24mms/fit front camber pins/realign and see what happens:crazy: .If all goes to plan the colour will change to XT[dark green] so it'll be "new" for 2010:lmao:
Regards Pete

[Dave Scott]

Hi all

I've drained my steering rack for days. turned the wheel from side to side, connected one end to the other, all those tricks and it is still "hard as" to drive.

Do I need to strip it down and flush it right out. Due to extreme laziness (extreme may be too soft a word but you get the idea) I've come up with plan f). Can I just hook the compressor up to it or will this stuff it up. I imagine the steering wheel might get up some serious speed if I go at it to hard but If I'm ***coughsensiblecough** would it work?

Thanks
Dave

[Crazy Dave]

As stated below. All you need to do after removing the pump is have the pipes open or off. Turn rack from side to side (till no more oil comes out) to pump out excess oil. Then try it out making sure that the hose allow any excess fluid to flow out of the rack or it will lock.

If the steering is heavy when driving, obviously it will be when not driving or going slow, you may have something else wrong. Also check your wheel alignment settings.

[Damo666]

Did you pull the rack head out, as per Skypilots pics earlier in this thread?

[Dave Scott]

As stated below. All you need to do after removing the pump is have the pipes open or off. Turn rack from side to side (till no more oil comes out) to pump out excess oil. Then try it out making sure that the hose allow any excess fluid to flow out of the rack or it will lock.

If the steering is heavy when driving, obviously it will be when not driving or going slow, you may have something else wrong. Also check your wheel alignment settings.



Did you pull the rack head out, as per Skypilots pics earlier in this thread?

Thanks

I'll have to get over being lazy and pull it apart. Just so I understand the pictures in Skypilots post, I'm removing and not replacing the valve cylinder in his hand in this this pic.

Dave