Bega pace notes

[kornel]

Sorry guys but another dumm question - I didnt check it yet (24/7hrs at work) but Lila told me we don't have pace notes in Bega - is it right? So is our "first lap" a "hot lap" straight away? we just get a roadbook and let's go rallying? Can we write any comments in the roadbook or nothing at all? By the way we won't have new suspension (but going to marry Lila end of the year! :crazy: )for Bega so again everyone will kick our asses:spank: - hate being last one! :clap:

[Crazy Dave]

Bega is a blind rally (so to speak) and therefore you do not drive over the stages but get given a basic road book that lists any hazards, intersections or major changes of road conditions, but thats it. You could have a few km before the next call but be stuck in second gear going left and right etc. You need to be able to drive to what you can see. There will be no seeing the course before you race on it so no opportunity to make any notes. The only notes some have will be mental ones from competing in previous years but after thousands of corners you see every year, I don't do to well at remembering.:spank:

[kornel]

Thanks a lot Dave! So sounds like I have a navigator for hire - or could swap for good suspension...:)

[Layla]

Hehehehe. Ok babe, wait till you get back home :potstir:

[Crazy Dave]

Navigator is still crucial as while I guess on average there is probably about 3 calls per kilometre, the calls that are there are the ones you really need to know about. You have to make sure you get you trip meter calibrated really well with the course checkers car (known as halda check) and need to know how to adjust it on the run if you are having some errors in stage. So nav has to be swept up on this.

As for standard suspension, I think Bob is still running standard suspension as well and as you showed at Lithgow, you weren't off the pace with it. Being softer will have advantages at times, but as you are finding, it is too easy to find the bump stops so you lose a lot of time in the big rough by having to slow more than others or speer of the road from having no suspension travel left.

[Grumblebum]

Kornel Another important piece of equipment for your navigator is a really good map light and bugger off the original globe and replace it with a LED globe. I navigated last year and had route marked in Yellow highlighter all was well but when I turned on map light with standard globe the highlighter disappeared!!!! so NO route was visible. After the event other navs told me NOT to use Yellow highlighter as it does its disappearing trick. Use pink and a LED globe.
Your Nav should also use the maps used by the director and by using both the map and road book you will know what lies ahead.
Good luck and I'll see you in Bega Peter

[kornel]

Thanks for tips guys! hope we will be OK, and for sure we will buy another light! - see you in Bega!

[HMCA]

My nav gets a easy time so I make it hard for him with regards to map lites:potstir:, He bitches and windges about it after every rally but it never goes on the "to do" list does it Wayno?

After all he only calls out 50% of the road book anyway.

Actually thinking about Kornel's post we should really consider where the excel series belongs with regards to route charts V's pace noted events especially for new commers. While pace notes give us the opportunity to be quicker the ability to read the road/ tree lines etc from route charted events lays a good foundation I believe.

Having done only 3 pace noted rallies Harv and I have a lot to learn about writing our own notes. We have found that we are over using 7's, 8's & 9's when we did Rally Q and looking at Coffs in 2008 we got the Pine creek staes completely wrong.

I think we've alrady had the debate on Notes v's Route charts before but what are the new commers thoughts?

[Lucky67]

Hey, don't diss the list dude.

Every time I send you one, you leave it at work when we are in the shed anyway !:)

I think I've suggested an LED a few times and even mailed a pic over.

Harv doesn't use a highlighter anyway, the builders pencil works fine in any light

[AnnaR]

Newbies always have the to option to run on the roadbook rather than notes don't they?

So it's a choice that the crews can make as to whether they run notes or not.

Personally, I love notes and when you get cranking through a stage on your own notes and it's all working it's bloody magic! Admittedly though Glenn and I have done a couple of pace noted events now and they work for us so I'm biased!!

:)

[Damo666]

Most are going to be at least a little quicker on notes, so by allowing notes in the series we are effectivley forcing people to use them if they want to be competetive.

If the pacenoted events are in the format of recce in the morning, event in the afternoon/evening, I dont reckon its a problem. But if you have to do the recce runs on a different day (ie, ROC is pacenoting on the Friday) I dont think we should introduce it to the Excel series.

If then involves an extra nights accomodation or an extra day off work, it becomes an additional cost that people are forced to pay.

[kornel]

For me pace notes are very important! Doesn't matter that it doesn't work between me and Lila well, but at least I know where to cut, where not to and where slow down bcoz of our suspension - now everything can happen! And the other thing - I haven't driven the car since Lithgow and Bega SS1 and 2 will be a bit strange for me, so I am more than happy to do pace notes because it is basically safer and it is crucial in rally driving - 1% of us (not me for sure:( ) maybe will drive Rally of Finland one day and good luck there without pacenotes:)

[Layla]

Well, I totally understand when we talk about costs :sick: Nobody wants to spend more money than needed...
We are new and we are on budged as well and just as an example when we talk about Bega, we will go there on Friday already to see the region (just around) and see the road book (never really use it on SS). This is our first time there and without knowing the place and being new in rally we don't want to get lost between the stages just because I may make mistake while navigating, so we are already spending money, but this is of course our choice...
I’m not forcing anyone to make a pace notes. I believe that everyone should do what they likes and what is easier for them, but I think that have a choice of using pace notes or road books would be nice.
Personally I love to make a notes, it helps to get to know the place, the driver and it is hard work but has a specific atmosphere and I really enjoy it :D I may be not so professional navigator yet (thanks for being honest Kornel :slap:), but Lithgow was my first rally and I have learned a lot there.
Hope one day I won't make mistakes :p

[Mooa42]

... we will go there on Friday already to see the region (just around) and see the road book (never really use it on SS). This is our first time there and without knowing the place and being new in rally we don't want to get lost between the stages just because I may make mistake while navigating, so we are already spending money, but this is of course our choice...


Blind rallies aren't that bad, (have a look at my incar footage in the East Gippsland post so you get some idea) Just be aware of the following detail from the supp regs;

ARTICLE 608: RECONNAISSANCE
608.1 Reconnaissance is prohibited in a rally car at any time.
608.2 In the interests of community relations, the organisers reserve the right to forbid reconnaissance on certain special stages during a specified period prior to the event in any vehicle. Any such restrictions will be advised in a bulletin. Offenders reported to the organisers will be reported to CAMS or the Stewards and they may be liable to being not permitted to start the event and, under such circumstances, the entry fee not being refunded.
608.3 Any violation of road traffic laws arising from ‘practising’ in any vehicle at any time prior to the event may lead to crew member/s concerned being denied permission to participate in the event, and any entry fee paid not refunded.

ARTICLE 609: PACE NOTES
609.1 Pace notes are banned from this event.
609.2 Pace notes shall be considered any documents of any form, other than the official documents or maps issued by the organisers for the event.
609.3 Observers may be placed along the route to ensure compliance with this regulation and any person found with pace notes will be reported to the Stewards who may impose any penalty up to and including exclusion from the event.

Also the road books aren't issued until the Saturday so you won't really have any idea where the rally is being run.

From what I have heard from others it is harder to go from pace noted to blind than vica versa but in general they are pretty good at marking all the corners or bits that are likely to get you unstuck. If it's any consilation, I don't think any of the Victorian entrants have done Bega before, so we'll all be Bega virgins.

[Crazy Dave]

You can have a look on you tube and there will be some in car video footage of Bega Rally from previous years and the stages haven't really changed, especially the shire stages and snake track. Have a look to get an idea but do not take notes and especially do not take them down as if you get caught with them you will be excluded from results and possibly face a fine from the stewards. If you can memorise stuff then great. If you go flat over a crest thinking there is a slight left on the other side and your memory has mixed it up with the next one and this one hard a hard right and you barrel roll the car then you have no one else to blame so don't rely to much on memory plus dirt roads can change a little from year to year.

[rally_toy_excel]

just out of interest what seems to be the 'normal' system for pace notes these days. . . 1-6 as in the hands on a clock, 1-5 as in gear selected? i know everyone has their own variation but does one basic system seem to be more common?

[Crazy Dave]

Most I know do 1-10 (10 being straight so really 1-9). But that comes back a bit to who I learnt from which is who has taught others I know and who I have taught. But when you talk to others at rallies it is still a great variety and I don't think one system dominates to the exception of a few.

[HMCA]

Most I know do 1-10 (10 being straight so really 1-9). But that comes back a bit to who I learnt from which is who has taught others I know and who I have taught. But when you talk to others at rallies it is still a great variety and I don't think one system dominates to the exception of a few.

Yep 1 to 10 for us but we're not really that good at it:lmao:

[Layla]

Ohh, no no no, we are not going to do reconnaissance on SS, I have read the supp regs and we are not going to make any pece notes. We just want to go around and see the place. It is hudge area, plus if I see the road book early enough I may look at the description and if there is anything I don't know than I can be prepared (we usually talk Polish in the car ):D I just didn't know that road books are given on Saturday :confused:
Also Im not saying that no pece notes is bad, coz that way I will learn different way of navigating, but Im just saying that it is nice to have a choice if anyone ask :)
Thanks so much for your advice guys. I will definatelly look at the previous movies from Bega and learn description.
Ohh and our system is 1-6.
See ya all there! :wave:

[kornel]

Thanks Dave! will check the youtube:)
are you guys really doing 1-10? I've never about heard about people doing more than 1-7! we doing 1-6 with Lila with "+" and "-" and it seems working pretty well - in 10 rallies maybe:)

[Latho]

just out of interest what seems to be the 'normal' system for pace notes these days. . . 1-6 as in the hands on a clock, 1-5 as in gear selected? i know everyone has their own variation but does one basic system seem to be more common?
We use 1-6, with '+' and '-' on 3-6. We've also got a 'flat' which would be similar to a 6+. For me a 6 may require a slight lift, or hesitation, whereas 6+ and flat I know regardless of what i see in front of me, or what I think... it's flat!

So all up we've got quite a range to choose from:
1|2|3-|3|3+|4-|4|4+|5-|5|5+|6-|6|6+|FLAT

But corners really are only one part of pacenotes, where you make up ALOT of time, particularly at an event like Rally QLD where its all cresty and flowing is ability to pacenote crests properly...

I know alot of people put corner grades on crests, and that can work alot of the time in conjunction with where abouts the corner is in relation to the crest (on crest, over crest, after crest all mean different things to me), but what I find a more useful tool is 'keeps'...

Example, if there's isn't really a corner on the crest (for those that know Kandanga at Rally QLD, there's a couple of classic crests towards the end which can be taken flat out if you know where to position the car), but you still need to deviate from straight you can use a call like "keep middle to left over crest" or "keep left to right over crest" or "keep middle to slight left over crest" to me the first part of the call is where the car needs to be at the top of the crest on the approach, and the second part is where the car needs to be on what I beleive to the be the bottom side of the crest...

Alot of people would just call them as corners, like "short 10 left" or something, I like to separate corners, and car positioning on crests into two different categories cause in my mind it's two different pieces of road. Especially at high speed over crests, where the car needs to end up is more important than necessarily the physical shape of the road!

[HMCA]

We use 1-6, with '+' and '-' on 3-6. We've also got a 'flat' which would be similar to a 6+. For me a 6 may require a slight lift, or hesitation, whereas 6+ and flat I know regardless of what i see in front of me, or what I think... it's flat!

So all up we've got quite a range to choose from:
1|2|3-|3|3+|4-|4|4+|5-|5|5+|6-|6|6+|FLAT

But corners really are only one part of pacenotes, where you make up ALOT of time, particularly at an event like Rally QLD where its all cresty and flowing is ability to pacenote crests properly...

I know alot of people put corner grades on crests, and that can work alot of the time in conjunction with where abouts the corner is in relation to the crest (on crest, over crest, after crest all mean different things to me), but what I find a more useful tool is 'keeps'...

Example, if there's isn't really a corner on the crest (for those that know Kandanga at Rally QLD, there's a couple of classic crests towards the end which can be taken flat out if you know where to position the car), but you still need to deviate from straight you can use a call like "keep middle to left over crest" or "keep left to right over crest" or "keep middle to slight left over crest" to me the first part of the call is where the car needs to be at the top of the crest on the approach, and the second part is where the car needs to be on what I beleive to the be the bottom side of the crest...

Alot of people would just call them as corners, like "short 10 left" or something, I like to separate corners, and car positioning on crests into two different categories cause in my mind it's two different pieces of road. Especially at high speed over crests, where the car needs to end up is more important than necessarily the physical shape of the road!

Greg

Good points:clap::clap: Noted:slap:

[MSA77]

here some basic notes i use , similar to what Greg uses. there are many more but these should get most people started

[rally_toy_excel]

now theres a variation... the 1 - 6 i had seen before was like the hands on a clock with a 1 being the quickest

[Matty C]

I use the 1 - 6 method. Though i don't care much for the '+' & '-' calls, may as well use 1-10 if doing that :crazy:

Just need to know roughly what the corner is - rest is reading the road for the speed.

[kornel]

Matty! I know I am less experienced here but I know opinion of my Polish friends who are doing the rallying for years and it seems working. Doing 1-10 is very easy to make a mistake, let's say you write 7 instead of 5 and 1-10 isn't easy to memorize when you drive on different sort of gravel on 1 stage and have to choose the right speed. And pluses and minuses: I have "+" when the end of the corner is wide so I can accelerate early and use the whole road (probably used it 3 times in Lithgow correctly:) ) , minus when the end of the corner is tight so I am slowing down in the middle of the corner and I'm driving extremely careful. So at least I know the theory:clap: But it is seriously long long way to write the corners correctly and understand each other with the co-driver and use the pacenotes to drive really faster than without them. Sounds like I will have new nickname "The theory man":)

Cheers
Kornel

[kornel]

I think ask Cullens because looking at their times in Lithgow... - they MUST have great notes and it is working great between them because the times were for me absolutely from different world - I do understand very good driver and very good car but looks like the whole team is working very well. or it was turbo excel:)

[Latho]

I use the 1 - 6 method. Though i don't care much for the '+' & '-' calls, may as well use 1-10 if doing that :crazy:
I don't like 1-10 for two reasons. Firstly '9' can sound like '5', and '10' can sound like 'turn'.

rest is reading the road for the speed.
Nup. Not on a pacenoted event, that's exactly what you don't want to be doing. By reading the road you second guess what you've written in your notes, and that's where you loose that last 2%...

1-10 is still more complicated than 1-6 with pluses and minuses. Not every corner needs a plus or minus, so you're keeping with a 1-6, but the pluses and minuses can be used to simplify other calls like tightens, or open, or if there's some reason you don't want to run wide, or if you can run wide... I find now there is a distinct difference between something like a 4+ and 5-.

[For me anyway] With 1-6 there's still only 6 grades of corners (plus my 'flat' call), the + and - just fine tune it. 1-10 messes with my head too much as I can't in my head picture 10 different grade of corners... :crazy:

[Latho]

now theres a variation... the 1 - 6 i had seen before was like the hands on a clock with a 1 being the quickest
Really? [I could be wrong here but] I though for most people 6 is the straight ahead?! Or am I just part of the Colin McRae Rally 2.0 generation?! :lmao:

I know one of the top guys uses it as 1 straight ahead (think it's Simon), but from most in car I've seen the higher the number the straighter the road...

And Nathan, that's an excellent little pocket guide!!!

[DaveTrees]

Or am I just part of the Colin McRae Rally 2.0 generation?!

Actually, a guy I ran with some years ago used the same the pacenote system as in CMR on the Playstation ... precisely because he was used to it, after hours of practice in front of the TV!

The thing I found interesting is that he only "graded" the corners from almost straight to 90deg (in 5 steps, I think) ..... anything tighter than that was just "hairpin" or "tight hairpin". His reasoning for this was that the tight corners are slow - where you make time through having good notes is on the fast stuff. Valid argument, I reckon.

Some people seem to llike very detailed/complex systems, while others like it simpler. Bottom line - no one system is necessarily better than another .... it just comes down to what works best for a particular driver.

[Latho]

The thing I found interesting is that he only "graded" the corners from almost straight to 90deg (in 5 steps, I think) ..... anything tighter than that was just "hairpin" or "tight hairpin". His reasoning for this was that the tight corners are slow - where you make time through having good notes is on the fast stuff. Valid argument, I reckon.
Yep, that's why you'll generally find in a 1-10 system, a 3 is a 90, so you've got 7 step of fast corners. Like wise in my 1-6, the 1 and 2 don't get any finer detail, but the 3-6 all get the + and - if required.

Some people seem to llike very detailed/complex systems, while others like it simpler. Bottom line - no one system is necessarily better than another .... it just comes down to what works best for a particular driver.
Yep, absolutely! Everyone's brain works different, and for me I like having the basic 6 grades, then fine tuning, where as other prefer using the high number system, generally to 9 or 10.

And to be completely honest, I only started with a 1-6 because of Colin McRae, so that's what came natural, but after watching alot of Solberg's in car video (he uses a 1-6 with + and -) I find it easier to follow than watching in car of 1-10, so that's why I went that way. That's probably the best way, jump on you tube, find what different people use, and see what you follow in your head the easiest.

[shabby]

where you make time through having good notes is on the fast stuff. Valid argument, I reckon.


Dead right, slow tight corners are just that SLOW. Get through them efficiently and pick up the time in the places where you need to grow a bigger set- downhill and fast stuff.

[VTRacing]

Just to throw my 2 cents in - I use 1 to 8 with + only (8 being flat out, 3 is square).

I started off using 1 to 6 but found I needed more definition in the faster corners - so I pinched the 1 to 8 system from Possum.

This also alleviates Greg's concern about 9 and 10 being confusing with 5 and turn. :wtf:

Both Simon and Eli Evans use 1 to 4 or 5 (with 1 being flat out) like the hands on a clock - but they also use "fast", "medium" "slow" to modify them so there are more grades.

I don't know anyone else in Australia who uses 1 to 8, but it would come in handy if I ever use Jemba notes:

http://www.jemba.se/notesnz.htm

[Matty C]

I don't like 1-10 for two reasons. Firstly '9' can sound like '5', and '10' can sound like 'turn'.


Nup. Not on a pacenoted event, that's exactly what you don't want to be doing. By reading the road you second guess what you've written in your notes, and that's where you loose that last 2%...

1-10 is still more complicated than 1-6 with pluses and minuses. Not every corner needs a plus or minus, so you're keeping with a 1-6, but the pluses and minuses can be used to simplify other calls like tightens, or open, or if there's some reason you don't want to run wide, or if you can run wide... I find now there is a distinct difference between something like a 4+ and 5-.

[For me anyway] With 1-6 there's still only 6 grades of corners (plus my 'flat' call), the + and - just fine tune it. 1-10 messes with my head too much as I can't in my head picture 10 different grade of corners... :crazy:

That's fair enough - in the end it all comes down to how comfortable you are with your notes. The hardest thing to do is make them consistent - once that is acheived the speed will come.

[Latho]

consistent - once that is acheived the speed will come.
Note the KEY word there: Consistent! Doesn't matter what system you use, if you're consistent you can back yourself regardless! ;)

[Latho]

This also alleviates Greg's concern about 9 and 10 being confusing with 5 and turn. :wtf:
Dude, don't pay me out! That there's a trick I've learnt in my decades in rallying!!! :lmao:

[I could be mistaken here] But I'm actually pretty sure it was Possum's autobiography where I picked those two points up... :confused:

Not so much 10/turn, but as someone who regularly has to ask people their 'best contact phone number' when they call up, 5 and 9 can sound the same, and every time I f**k it up, I have these flashes of me throwing a car off the road at 160km/hr cause I've heard '5'... :(

[VTRacing]

Yeah, and to be honest I have no idea what Possum's reasons for using that system were.

I just wanted to go from 1-6 and didn't want to make the big jump to 1-10.

Recently learned weird fact is that Seb Loeb uses corner angle (in degrees) to grade his corners. I guess that means you don't need tape on the dash - just a protractor.

As mentioned above, consistency is crucial. Just about anything can work as a note system - but if the notes are not consistent you will never be able to trust them.