what cost the brake conversion?

[ernysp76]

just wondering if the costs are reasonable if it might be worth looking at the rear disk brake swap as a possiblity for the series?

[Damo666]

I think keeping it stock is the smarter way to go (IMO).

The stock drum brake braking performance is already pretty good, very reliable, dirt cheap and readily available.

It sounds as though the Lantra bits needed arent exactly common, and I'm not sure that the disc rear offers too many advanatges?
(it throws up the possibility of other mods required to get them on such as changing booster sizes, correcting the balance with bias valves etc).

[Whitey]

I understand it will also require 14 inch wheels. Maybe a change of wheel stud spacing

[Bevan-L]

It cost me in total $275 incl freight to canberra for the setup.
I bought the braided hose separately though.
Wheel stud spacing is exactly the same.

I changed to disc brakes because im in the process of turning the car into a weekend track toy, not to mention the fact that the engine will be of a bigger capacity and turbocharged. gotta be able to stop still :)

Personally if your drums are working just fine now dont bother with trying to change it.

[ernysp76]

Hooking up the hand brake, can you explain how that is done.

[Bevan-L]

Quite easy, the lantra cables all hook up fine to the excels handbrake etc
all you need to do is swop the cable guide brackets on the caliper from left to right and you need to bend them a little.

The brackets are in a an L shape and you just bend them inwards a bit so they look like this instead /_ but not such a steep angle :)

[ernysp76]

Thanks Bevan, the drums don't work fine they overheat thereby comprimising safety as the handbrake is also an emergency brake if the hydraulic circuit fails. I think for this cost it should seriously be looked at for the rally series as a hydraulic handbrake attached to this would be great and last a lot longer as well as being cheaper to maintain and as I said safer, not to mention the ease with which a Terratrip sensor could be set up.

[Whitey]

The only drawbacks i see is the need to run 14 inch wheels, the lack of availability of donor parts and the cost.

John, I am pretty sure no one in NSW is having drum rear brake issues, what shoes are you running?

The 14 inch wheels will also open up a load of new & different tyres and compounds. The 13 inch wheels provide a reasonably controlled number of tyre choices which seem to be pretty comparable.
Would you consider a control tyre as part of the deal?

It is possible to uncross the F-R brakes and install a Hydraulic Handbrake. It took a while to get the balance right but now it works great.
Race Brakes/ Specialized Brake & Clutch know what needs to be done.

cheers
dw

[HMCA]

Gents

We have been using SBS front pads and rear shoes from the start and have always had good brake pedal, good stopping power and no brake fade what so ever.

We also replaced the brake master cyl, rear wheel cyl, new caliper kits with the addition of chinese spings (Knock off Springs), SBS braided brake lines, new discs and drums when we first built the car. All this may of helped secure good braking properties and the brakes are something both myself and others that have driven the car are happy with.

If you are having brake fade issues maybe you need to look at what you have replaced already or not replaced. Glen has had some brake problems which I believe eventually revolved around the front caliper kits

Our Victorian car "Elvis" when aquired had Lantra brakes front (disc) and rear (Drums) that the previous ricer had fitted. It had also had a turbo at some stage so my guess the brake upgrade was to effect rego requirements. 13 inch wheels would only fit with spacers and I don't think it ever turned a wheel before the brakes were changed back.

Given the availability and cost of doing the upgrade I'm not in favour. We need to get the cars faster not slow em down. Relacing wheels and tyre options would as Whitey has said will also open up a new can of worms.

Now where was Stewie Reids Number

Cheers Mick

[ernysp76]

From memory Whitey it was the NSW blokes complaining about rear brake overheat in the Rally Sport News articles. The pad material is irrelevant as it is the drums that overheat and distort. The disk brakes are available both new and s/h. I like the fear campain, first it was cost this was proven incorrect, then it was the diferent stud pattern, this was proven incorrect, now it is the 14" rim requirement, how can this be? given the brakes are smaller diameter than the front. For 300 bucks I think the added safety and convience would be a real benifit and should be investigated with the correct technical information. I really appreciate the photos and work presented to us from Bevan.

[ernysp76]

Sorry about that Whitey the Lantra diameter is 257 for the rear vrs 242 for the Excel front, so yes there might be a problem, but given the clearance around the front disk set up I doubt it. As another issue all j1 lantras have the same rear disk, so the availability should be a problem and they are listed with DBA.

[Whitey]

No fear campaign here, I'd be happy for some more freedoms as i like tinkering and engineering changes to my car.

I'm just focusing on what the series is about.

I don't think it is the discs but the calipers, the fronts clear the wheel by less than 10mm.

For my mind a change in wheel size is a show stopper.

[Whitey]

I don't think many J1 Lantras with Disc brake rears came into Australia.
Most of them had drums.

[HMCA]

Not knowing how many cars came to Aust with rear discs I don't believe there were too many. As far as availabilty new is concerned

LH Caliper 20 in stock Korea
RH Caliper 19 in stock Korea
LH Bracket 3 in stock Korea
RH Bracket 4 in stock Korea
Rear Hubs 7 in stock Korea
rear Disc 24 In stock Korea

[Whitey]

Mick, what are the costs for each of those bits?

[Bevan-L]

I dont mean to open a can of worms here, Im just providing the info to anyone interested.

I do know some people have also done the conversion using the bits from a Proton Satria GTI or XLI or the Proton Wira.

I dont know whats involved in doing the conversion with those components though.

[HMCA]

Mick, what are the costs for each of those bits?

A fair bit more then 300 bucks

The LH caliper is the only thing we have priced and its list price is an outragous $470+GST

[ernysp76]

Thanks for your considered opinion gentlemen. And again thanks Bevan. Mick from everything I've read and talked to others in relation to smooth fast rallying quicker consistant stopping power is what makes for fast stage times, cars that are lacking in the brake department are both slower and eventually more likely to fall of the road, you guys have obviously spent time and money investing in making sure that your brake set up is the best it can be within the rules. Not sure what you are talking about in relation to chinese springs where are they and what do they do? Did come across one car the other night in the George Woods memorial trial who had lost rear brakes to the left hand rear because he had removed the auto adjusters.

[dazzler]

Ed Ordynski used to say that most of his passengers on ride days commented on just how good the cars brakes were and amazed at its ability to stop rapidly above all else :hail:

My stage times in my RWD Lancer dropped significantly when we went to 4w discs and proportioning valve. :)

[Damo666]

Erny, I dont think that anyone here is trying to shout you down at all, but for me one of the most appealing things about the Excel series - like the Gemini series before it - is that the cars are bog standard, and therefore cheap to build and run!

The series is not designed to have us running in the quickest & most technologically advanced machinery. If you feel that the risk of running rear drums is too much, there is always the option of turning it into a PRC car where you have plenty of freedom to play with this stuff. I for one, would be really interested to see how competetive an Excel can be with an LSD, 4W discs and some inlet & exhaust mods.

The numbers just dont add up unless we can find a cheaper alternative that the swap that Bevan has done;

1) There only seems to be one flavour of J1 Lantra that was released here with rear discs. The numbers that Mick has posted for new parts, in terms of both availabilty (less that 30 sets, from Korea only....) and price look pretty scary. Say $300 if you can find secondhand, over $1000 if buying new?

2) Wheels - its debateable if 13's will fit, I dont think that Lantras were released with anything less that 14's? So we may be up for a set of wheels, say an absolute minumum of 6 new wheels (5 in car, 1 spare). $xxx?
14 tyres obviously cost more that 13's, but the real issue is for those that were planning to run secondhand tyres - 13's still seem to be available, 15's are cheap and readily available from the EVOWRX guys, but secondhand 14's are in pretty shorty supply here.

3) Proportioning - Bevan has mentioned that the pedal has OK feel, but it gives bulk rear bias. I'm not going to argue if this is more dangerous than having drums which get hot, but were are looking at a minimum of $100 for an adjustable in-line valve here.

4) Master cylinder - Bevan seems to think that the pedal feel is OK, but in older cars you'll also need to remove the check valve that supplies constant pressure to the drums when swapping to discs...might need to do this on the Excel, or have someone do it for you?

[fro]

Erny, I dont think that anyone here is trying to shout you down at all, but for me one of the most appealing things about the Excel series - like the Gemini series before it - is that the cars are bog standard, and therefore cheap to build and run!

I'm with Damo here.

I'm contemplating how I can justify building an Excel rally car to the wife (answer: I can't but I'm going to anyway), but part of the reason I like the Excel Series is because the cars are as close to standard as is practicable. I like the idea of being able to use standard Excel parts, rather than the typical jumble of parts of various models that most PRC rally cars are.

[ernysp76]

Ok I take all the points and accept them. However we still don't seem to have many hard facts on this, including whether the wheels will fit. I'll go and do some more homework on the topic and get back to you all, at this stage I do know that DBA only list a disk brakes for the rear of the J1 Lantra in their Australian catalog whether this means they only have disk brakes I don't know. As for costs, any new parts are always going to cost more even with the support we get from HMC.

[Bevan-L]

3) Proportioning - Bevan has mentioned that the pedal has OK feel, but it gives bulk rear bias. I'm not going to argue if this is more dangerous than having drums which get hot, but were are looking at a minimum of $100 for an adjustable in-line valve here.

4) Master cylinder - Bevan seems to think that the pedal feel is OK, but in older cars you'll also need to remove the check valve that supplies constant pressure to the drums when swapping to discs...might need to do this on the Excel, or have someone do it for you?

These are two points you would have to look at if doing the conversion.
It wasnt an issue for me as Im replacing the std braking system anyways with an aftermarket pedal box etc
but if I wasnt then I would end up having to replace the master cylinders/booster as well with perhaps the lantra's one or from another model Hundy..

Anyways, feel free to ask any questions on it and I'll help out where I can with what I experienced.:)

[Whitey]

I do know that DBA only list a disk brakes for the rear of the J1 Lantra in their Australian catalog whether this means they only have disk brakes I don't know.

In the DBA catalog i have, the drums are listed seperately at the back, in the latest catalog the drums are a seperate book altogether.

Also just measured the inside diameter of a 13 inch alloy wheel which is 280mm, that would give just over 20mm for the caliper.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that 14 inch wheels are required, Maybe Bevan can you measure the radius from the centre of the drive shaft to the outside of the caliper on his setup.

[HMCA]

How about I send Bevan a wheel to try on the rear?

Bevan

Are you happy to accept the challange?

[Bevan-L]

How about I send Bevan a wheel to try on the rear?

Bevan

Are you happy to accept the challange?

I've got the spare 13" steel wheel, would you guys like me to try that?
Or do you want to if an alloy wheel will fit?

If you're happy with me trying the 13" steel wheel I'll hook it up this weekend and post the results with pics :)

[Glenn]

John,

Please don't take any of this personally, I'm just quite passionate about this. :)

I'm firmly in favour of keeping the braking system standard. Apart from Fro and Damo's perspective (which I completely agree with). There is nothing wrong the standard system.

Here's my main reasons.

1. I have never had a problem with the rear braking power. No fade. Nothing.

2. The Excel is the best brake-balanced car I've ever driven on dirt. I've driven cars with 4 wheel discs that are a lot worse.

3. My braking system is completely standard apart from SBS pads in the front. I run $30/set standard shoes in the rear and the balance is still great.

I don't know of anyone up here having trouble with rear brakes, so I don't know where that came from.

Cheers

Glenn

[ernysp76]

Thanks for the that I tried to put a 13 inch wheel on a J1 Lantra with disks and they don't fit.... end of story! No point in looking at it anymore. The rear fade story was in a article put in Rally Sport News when it was still in paper format last year, by the NSW crew don't know if it was Glens or Micks car as they where the only ones featured. What ever does matter as it can't be done so no point pursuing it.