Big Demand for pre built Hyundai Excel's?

[luke_how]

I have noticed not only on this forum but just talking to people that they are all looking for pre built Hyunda Excel Rally cars. Some people even mentioned they would get into the series if all cars were built by one person/company. what do you guys think. I wonder if it is people get the impression that the cars are really hard to build or they would save money buying one already built.
I wonder if somebody is keen on the mainland to start building them for the public?

[Whitey]

I did have a discussion with Bean at Automotive Gadgets about this, the conclusion was that we didn't think people would be prepared to pay enough to make it worth the time of a professional doing the work.
Building any rally car is very time consuming and generally a labour of love.

It is all a matter of how much needs to be done before handing over to the owner. What price would be acceptable to pay for part of the work.

eg, SOHC Car with Cage and seat mounts only for say $4k-$5k
Twin cam about a grand more.

Automotive Gadgets can provide sump guards and brackets, fuel tank protection and strenghened rear arms already ready to bolt up. He also has templates for all the front end plating.

[luke_how]

I think fabricating parts for the cars from scratch would be the scariest thing for new comers, planning on building a car. Like you say Automotive Gadgets makes a range of pre-fabricated parts which makes it easier. Maybe some sought of kit put together which contains all pre fabricated parts needed for the basic excel rally car, like bolt in cage, seat brackets, under body protection, strengthened arms, ect.
Just a thought.

[HMCA]

I think coming up with the level of preparation will be the hard thing to justify building a car for someone.

The cost and the level of preparation vary greatly already with the cars that have already been built. As Glenn has already said and proven you don't need the standards of the Factory cars to beat the pants off them.

I guess what everyone is wanting is to save the time on building the car to start with. I have a spare shell that is ready for the cage but it has already taken approx 200 hours to get it ready to the level we were prepared to go too. I'm certainly not trying to scare anyone with this just letting you know as we have no idea how many hours went into the first car and we are keeping a bit of an eye on the time on spare car.

If you were not so pedantic about sound deadening etc and you used a bolt in cage the time would certainly be a lot less and therefore the build costs would be less.

I won't know what our 2008 plans are until October so I can't say weather we will be selling anything (Car or Shell) until then. Although I will probably be trying to sell the Reece car by the end of the year.

Cheers Mick

[Glenn]

Hi Luke,

Yeah I reckon it is a pretty scary prospect to build a rally car especially if you've had limited experience with rallying up to that point.

I reckon that this issue is the main reason preventing a lot more people jumping into the series. In an ideal world, if the cars were available at a reasonable price, I could see that we'd have 20+ competitors in each state in no time...... As Whitey has said, there's a lot of work required to build a car. You would need to price a basic car at about $15k for it to be economically feasible...and believe me, that's a pretty good price considering the number of hours involved. A car to the same standard would cost maybe $10k to build yourself, maybe a bit less.

I like the idea of having a kit. That would definitely make things easier. A lot of the time in the build is focussed around the roll cage and fabrication of mounts (seats/sumpguard/fuel tank guard/etc).....but there's still the uncertainly people have regarding doing things the "right" or "approved" way, so there would need to be a good set of instructions available as well.

So as far as being able to buy a car that is ready to go, do you think anyone would pay $15k? The alternative for that type of money would be a well-used VR4, but then you'd probably do 5 rallies in the Excel for the cost of doing 1 rally in the VR4, so you've got to keep running costs in mind.

Thoughts?

[Trevor]

I don't think having pre-built car is a finacially feasible idea. The Excel Series is designed as a cheap entry level form of the sport but when you start paying labor costs it's no longer cheap. As Glenn said, the price would put you in the market for second hand (faster) rally cars.

As to building a car from scratch, well I wouldn't say that I am new to the rally scene, and as such it probably isn't as hard for me compared to a new person to the sport, but even so, I have been wondering "well what do I do now?"

For example I have no idea about seam welding/plating. There was a thread (http://www.excelrally.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=238) about this issue not that long ago, but it didn't end up resulting in many actual details being included in the thread (just a phone number for me to call when I am up to that point).

What I think we need to do is start gathering information to make it easier (less scary?) for first time car builders.

I think it would be great to start a "how to build an Excel" section/thread in the "Tech Talk" area (which is updated regularly) and includes (or links too) everything a person needs to know to build up an Excel.

Things like,
Cages
Sump guards
Seam welding/plating (templates)
Seat Mounts
Mounting terratrip probes
Hydro Handbrake

The thread would need to cater for doing it yourself, or companies which do it for you. It will also need details for the companies in different states (like cage builders).

I realise a lot of the information is already on this website, but it is spread out, this idea would centralise in the information and hopefully go into more detail thus making it easier for newbie builders.

Cheers,
Trevor

[luke_how]

I realise a lot of the information is already on this website, but it is spread out, this idea would centralise in the information and hopefully go into more detail thus making it easier for newbie builders.

Cheers,
Trevor

Yes I Agree with your post the information is spread out, you need to search for things and where do you start (the internet is huge, so is the forum).

The forum browser needs to know where to get seat brackets and how much, where to get cage and how much, cams licence whats involved how much where to go, ect. of course prices and availability of anything will change but atleast something that gives new comers a basic understanding, and links or email adresses where we can gain further understanding.

Cheers

[ernysp76]

Luke I wrote of series of articles on the topic for Rally Sport News I'll see if we can use them on this forum. It gives any newcomers a lot of tips in relation where to go and how to get started. From my perspecitve the most important part was getting the body shell and roll over protection right. I didn't muck around and dug deep to get it done properly from here I spoke to a lot of people went to a lot of rallies and asked a lot of questions, as well as having fun doing the build.

[matt mead]

Building the car is half the fun :rofl: or half the headache.

i like building cars but, i find the things u learn from building you cant pay for.

[shake]

Sorry for bringing this one back from the dead, but i was using the search and found it oh so relavant. Did anyone ever start writing the how to section/thread. It would be the best advertisement for the series and help people contemplating a build with limited skill and resources...which is me really. As i'm currently making a list before i get started.

MSA cage $1650 fitted plus travel
AusSport Rally Tyres x 4 - $460 plus delivery
Seats & Harnesses off GSL - $758 plus travel
MSA Seat Mounts - $300ish?
Camber Pins, increased caster bushings + Aglinment - $300ish
Have interior of car sprayed - $550

Not that my list has much to do with this thread...

The competitor price list in the sponsor section is great, but i'd love a how to with pics and information, without bothering people on there mobile numbers as stated ubove.

[Damo666]

Shake - have a look in the technical section, there are quite a few 'build threads' for people's cars that have piccies & good info on their cars.

From your list, there is no way I'd be spending $500+ to have the interior sprayed - get yourself lots of newspaper, a small roller for the floor and some spraycans for the cage. I reckon you can budget around $50 and it will look fine.
Similarly, seat mounts can be made from $40 or so of strap steel (or alloy), and if you keep your eyes peeled secondhand seats can be had for a few hundred each.

The $1k or so saved puts you much closer to a decent set of front struts, which will make a much bigger difference than the other bits (IMO).

[shake]

Yeah agree on the paint issue.

Would the lantra struts off say a 2000 model fit, an give more droop?

[rally_toy_excel]

maybe a rally preparation manual for the excels? similar to the group 4? one u can still buy for the ford escorts. showed u were to weld what it terms of strengthening etc.

if it was online could have the templates for the wheel well liners, templates for strengthening plates

and the kit idea sounds promising, would b similar to other single make motorsport series with nominated or preferred suppliers that have a fixed price struts, cages, light pods, seat mounts etc that are 'guaranteed' to be series and CAMS legal. supplier gets sales, competitor gets better prices and less hassle

[ernysp76]

When I painted the interior of my car I went and got two litres of mis-tint paint. PPG Acrylic Group 3 metalic same shade as the standard Hyundai colour only $40 for two litres, the cage was painted in flat black. You can also get it put into cans and pressurised for a little bit more. Materials to do a good job no more than $100.

[Col Vic]

would b similar to other single make motorsport series with nominated or preferred suppliers that have a fixed price struts, cages, light pods, seat mounts etc that are 'guaranteed' to be series and CAMS legal. supplier gets sales, competitor gets better prices and less hassle

No No No, the single compulsory supplier of all the parts is what killed all the other "One Make" series such as Daihatsu, Proton Corolla etc along with the need to buy a brand new car. I'm sure if MSA or someone was to put a kit of brackets, seat mounts, reinforcing bits and all that sort of stuff etc together that was available to everyone without being compulsory, they would be knocked over in the rush, but don't make the seats, cage, lights etc from a single supplier compulsory, being able to source/build/scrounge yourself is one of the attractions of our series.

Col

[rally_toy_excel]

did say preferred not compulsory supplier
:)

[ernysp76]

Some suppliers are more interested than others some are more reliable than others and some will even try to rip you off. Best bet is to talk to some owners look at their cars and decide what suits you. Cage and shell preparations should be based on written quotes.

For me safety and a strong light shell was my main concern so a spent more than many on cage and stitch welding. Others don't give a stuff about the shell and spend it on suspension and put in a bolt in cage, for others it is all about looks. The rules and regs coupled with the PRC regs give you a great start. Ready built cars won't have a big market as many people like to personalise their cars, besides when others do the work it will cost.

[rexxus]

I going to bring my dirty french habit into this. Sorry.

One of the most exciting and helpful things for me when I built my car was a "Peugeot Sport 106, 205 and 306" build manual. Even though I'd been in a Gemini rally car for 3 years.

It highlighted weak points on a car I knew very little about (eg lock wire all gear shift linkages), gave part numbers (seat mounts part # xyz) and was something that gave me a starting point/check list.

I used it as a check list separated into two parts - must haves and nice to haves, must haves - I need all this stuff to get running, I can make it/get it made/or buy it, but which ever way I go, all this has to be done before I head out to the dirt for the first time.

Building a car is not easy, I see it (and the curses I dreamt up for the french engineers) as a major part of the rallying experience, others may not.

So my opinion is whilst build threads are good, a build manual (whether or not it stipulates part numbers, who to get them from etc), would be a huge help to those considering it but thinking it might be too hard.

Cheers

[ernysp76]

I disagree with the notion that it is hard to build a rally car if you start with an Excel a Pug maybe but not a Hyundai. Put a cage in and rally it till it breaks then fix that bit and move on. Hell there is a certain Excel leading the Vic Series that ran a couple of rallies on standard Excel Suspension... and won! There are plenty of Excels rallying that are not full blown bare shell builds, in fact I'd guess that most are just caged road cars. Looking under many of the Vic cars I've noticed that apart from a sump guard most don't even have protection over their fuel tanks and fuel lines.

I think you'll find economies of scale might be a bit different between one of the most popular FWD Euro rally cars and the two dozen Excels in Australia. To put a build manual together for an Excel would mean running one for a few years noting breakages and body problems pulling one apart inspecting and photographing the points to be reinforced and publishing it (many of these photos are already on this website). And then getting the nits picked out of your build manual by the armchair experts on this forum. Take it from someone that has punted one of these things around for the last 2 and half years in VRC, VCRS, the Alpine, Hill climbs and recently the 6 hour. The cars are not hard to build into a rally car and you don't need a manual to do it, just some common sense and a bit of support from those that have done it already.

If you did the search on here you would easily be able to find out where people have modified body shells, put seat mounts in and even various designs for cages. If you want a manual pull the photos and posts off here and use the stuff that's on here, if there is a still an area that's not covered ask.

Don't over complicate the situation, our first winner in the Victorian Series ran a single cam Excel with a simple cage and DMS suspension minimum body mods and nothing stripped out of the interior (including the drivers and navigators seats). That car has now run for several seasons including most weekends at motorkhanas and autocross and in the hands of the new owner recently did the Phillip Island 6 Hour as well.