Who should the Excel Series "cater" for?

[Trevor]

Hey Guys

I got on to this briefly in the Tumut/Captain Flat/NSW ARC event thread, but thought expanding on it would be more appropriate here.

Now to me, my view of the Excel Series is to provide an entry level-low cost form of rallying to try and get new entrants into the sport (Ben/Me), and also provide a cheaper alternative for existing competitors (Fro/Tom/Haggers).

The choice of car and the mods which are allowed back this theory up, but I don't think the events do.

Referring to the other thread, I don't think pacenotes are "entry level", nor do I think that tacking on to an ARC event is "entry level"

It goes beyond the current discussion of this one event as well. Pairing the Excel Series up with the NSW State series (requiring apparel), when the events could be paired against NSW Clubman rounds.

An example of this, why are the Excels using NatCap, when they could be using the BRM Safari instead? Like the Gemini series is.

Esp when you consider, travel for interstate competitors is the same, the roads are basically they same (but better road condition as you aren't as far back in the field), and lower clothing requirements.

Plus the entry fee for BRM is cheaper (unless Excels only do the short NatCap event), mind you though the distance is shorter (but I think longer if Excels only do the short event?)

Cheers
Trevor

[Crazy Dave]

Good question and well asked. This is going to open up a few cans of worms and everyone is going to have a different point of view. So here is mine.

Some aspects first.

A newbie getting into rallying is still going to be easier and cheaper by buying and already set up car and heading out into the forest as it is going to be set up and provide less frustration to start with. But for those that want to build, and there are plenty of those, then excels is the most economical and most appropriate type of car to start with, plus many other advantages such as in the friendly atmosphere, the amount of help and advice freely available etc etc.

I was not a newby but was out of the competiting side of the sport for many years and this was the clincher to get me back in as it gave me a cost effective way to be competitive and thats what some people are also looking for, and they are not newbies.

There are also people competing out there at the moment who are looling at the series as a way of doing what they do, with less expense, and the possibility of it leading to better recognition than what they get now, ie you don't need to spend 100 grand to get a state title or many times that for an australian one (hence my push for an australian title to attract another class of people).

In the end, I think that we have a range of people and are not seeking to attract or cater for one particular type but we are going to be bigger than that. We could break it down into 2 distinct groups of novices and trophie chasers and already recognise that (at least in NSW) with the novice prizes. I think we need to pick events that best cater for great rallying (roads, organisation, etc), good social friendly atmosphere and overall a variety of experiences.

Having said all that I would have selected a different calendar and may have included safari but not Natcap, and our original intention was mostly for clubman events. Coffs was but changed to a state. As for the discusion about the ARC round, I don't like the idea of runnning pacenotes (never have run them) but think there are other advantages such as exposure in doing it, plus a few have said they were looking at dong it anyway.

Thats my view, what are the others.

[dazzler]

My view is that the excel series should stick with clubman from the cost side of things.

But.......perhaps a limited "super excel" series on a couple of state/arc rounds, with gearbox freedoms as an ADDITION to the normal series.

in this way the excels get great advertising in the state /ARC rounds and would be more competitive and turn some great times and heads.

Just a thought, and one im not gunna crash in a ditch over, but a thought non the less :hyper:

[ernysp76]

Pace notes love em even at entry level, they are so much fun. If you want to do it though get plenty of advice. We're very happy with our formula in Victoria and I think the number of entrants is testiment to having the right formuala but we are lucky we have a stong advocate at CAMS in Col, you need a Col but you can't have him. Our events costs on average entry only $450. we budget for this, we don't include Rally of Melbourne because until recently they won't cut us any deals which blows the cost out, instead we will be running a Rally Sprint. Of all the VRC rounds only ROM and Akedemos are pacenoted and even with the Aka the road books are good enough to use if you don't feel confident with your notes or you fall off. Read some books on the subject and talk to pro-navigators I know Bronni bailed up both Coral Taylor & Sue Evans at ROM. We had help from Greg Honniville and spent a lot of time before hand discussing the type of notation we would use. I mean how hard could it be last years winner of the Akedemos was won by a crew with a navigator who had never navigated before let alone pace noted, he learnt all he knew from Richard Burns (via X-Box)!!!

[Trendact]

I agree with Trevor, If I kept the Excel there was no way that I was going to be able to do all the rounds that were part of the NSW state rounds do to budget. I also agree that the BRM is a better option then the NatCap and I did put that option forward but I think dates was one issue and there was another issue as well (Whitey what was it again?) and when we voted I may have been the only one that voted for the BRM.

The BRM is a better rally IMO then the NatCap and as Trevor said it is cheaper and the LCCC were willing to let the Excels run at the front of the field.

[Rally Angel]

I think the it is important to keep the Excels at the lower levels of entry. Our Clubman series works a bit differently in SA though. However, next year, we would probably look at keeping it inline with the Clubman series and depending on dates, possibly combine our cheapest state round.

It may be good to use the larger events as a "showcase". Not for points. Not compulsory by any means. Just a space for those who have some funding and to show the rest of the rally arena our strength. It could be used as a promotional tool towards the larger amount of spectators at these larger rounds who may be outside the normal circles and looking for a cheap competition car.

[Trevor]

It may be good to use the larger events as a "showcase". Not for points. Not compulsory by any means. Just a space for those who have some funding and to show the rest of the rally arena our strength. It could be used as a promotional tool towards the larger amount of spectators at these larger rounds who may be outside the normal circles and looking for a cheap competition car.

This actually isn't that bad an idea, and could be done at either the NSW ARC and/or at RoC next year.

Have one or two Excels (like the factory cars) running and then have other Excels as a static display with handouts, talking about the idea of the series, the level of mods and costs involved.

But using those events as point scoring rounds I would hate to see happen.




As for pacenotes, and the comments made by "ernysp76" (John is it?) I think you have to realise the view on pacenotes in NSW is different to that of Vic, and SA as well.

In NSW/ACT we only have 4 pacenoted rallies, two are ARC level, and the other two are State level events. Neither of which I would class as entry level, and neither of which I think the Excels should be aiming at.

In my opinion Bega is an exemption, because it allows the Excels from NSW to compete against the Vic crews, but apart from that, I think the Excels should try and stay clear of the State events.

[HMCA]

Guys

In 2005 all of the Excel Rounds were state Championship rounds. At a meeting in late 2005 the then current competitors agreed to change our alignment with the State series and concentrate on going to good events with Directors that wanted the Excels. The mix of events was pretty good with some clubman and some state.

Before the start of Coffs last year we all ( Apart from FAZZ who forgot!!!) got together and talked about what events for 2007. It was suggested that Coffs was too far to travel but approx 6 or 8 hours after the meeting the entire Excel series competitors wanted Coffs is the 2007 Calender- those roads- Sherwood!!! Tony Creer was certainly helpful and gave us access to the Media day and we (the Excel series) recieved local TV coverage.

For 2007 we were all asked to vote for which events we liked and Whitey did the best to get the most popular events in the calender and have a even calender schedule and type of events.

Whitey may correct me here but I think Nat Cap was out at the begining but was later reinstated.

Has there always been a date available for the BRM? Not sure why it wasn't considered for the series.

I know travel is always hard for new competitors and so is the extra time off work. I am in a lucky situation compaired to most I know and we have done some kms in the past-Traralgon in 2006. We have been looking at going to SA the week after coffs but I think we will have to miss this as time is not on our side.

The Excel Series is currently a state series so it needs to compete in NSW not just the South Coast or North Coast or the ACT(God forbid). We made our decision on what events we were going to run based on the Roads (1st), The Event Organisation(2nd), Calander (3rd), the Exposure for the team and Excel series (2nd) the date and the budget(Bugger). The distance and entry fee never really made much of an impact on our decisions.

As far as the mix of event status is concerned Coffs was still a clubman round when it was added to the Excel Series. The State Round status happened after. So the intention was there to mix the events up.

Just my 2 cents worth

Cheers Mick

[Whitey]

Thanks Mick!!!

The calendar made sense when we set it up, it only included one state round -Bega. Date changes and event status changes along with the driving suit issue have conspired against us. I don't know why we need to justify this BUT...

As Mick said everyone voted on which events they wanted to see on the calendar. The criteria were

no pacenotes.
even spread across north & south
road/event quality.
Bega was in no matter what
At any state round, Excel points would be awarded on the short event only.(at reduced entry fee)Things which happened along the way.

Tumut date shifted from March to September (we originally left September free for the ARC.)
BRM date was originally one or two weeks after Bega.
Driving suits were not supposed to be requirted for short event portion of state rounds.
Ulladulla format made it unsuitable for inclusion so Natcap was substituted.
Coffs got upgraded to a state round.In light of the Apparel rules it seems unlikely that Excels will run state rounds next year.
However this will create a problem for the Bega Interstate Challenge, as Apparel is required. Do we not include Bega as a round and make it optional for those who want to compete.
Another issue is that at least 2-3 clubman rounds are held in areas with crap roads.

[Whitey]

Certainly running state rounds in 2005 provided good exposure, it got the Victorians on board, They were busy checking out the 3 cars that went to Bega. The same could happen at Coffs this year as it is a joint NSW/QLD state round.

[ernysp76]

While this appears to be a NSW discussion in Victoria we are firmly in favor of the Victoria Rally Championship and the Excels are not only welcomed into it but are often front and center of the per-event activities. I know there are some rumblings about the high entry cost and extra apparel required to run but my view was always that this is an entry level into the the premium league not just rallying. By this I mean the cars are modern, they are generally well presented and the rules and style of rallying have a emphasis on speed between points, if I wanted to go rallying in the Victorian Club Rally Series I would have bought a $3,000 special clanker and a compass and gone in a whole different direction with my rallying, in fact I am about to buy a Marina for this purpose.
As for pacenoting it is part of this style of rallying and no where have I seen it written that you need to be good at it straight away but you should learn how to do them if you want to rally in a State or National Series and I think you guys are lucky if you have so many opportunities. Pacenoting starts somewhere and doing it in a Excel IS ideal as the car is going at a speed that allows you to learn, run a workshop on it if you have to but don't think it is to be avoided because it is not introductory in a Excel it can be. The Excel Series from my perspective is an introductory series into modern rallying and that means the rules of A-A timing and special stages, if you don't want to pace note I question whether you really want to rally in the style of rallying that a State and National Series offers anyway, go back to your compass and maps and looking in the dark for those "vias" and un-mapped roads in the club series, I do it for fun from time to time and came 3rd outright in my second rally of that type beating Dinta Officer in the process, for me it was fun but hardly challenging as it requires more knowledge about following maps than it does outright car speed having been a scout since 1967 it was more like a hiking activity with a car than my idea of modern rallying.

I also beat an ex-aussie rally champ!!!

[ernysp76]

.
Another issue is that at least 2-3 clubman rounds are held in areas with crap roads.

Clubman roads are usually crap as the events probably score more points for all VIAS found than road speed.

[Whitey]

John,
all NSW clubman events are special stage rallies with A-A timing same as state rallies.

[Crazy Dave]

I am with Whitey here in that we don't really have (or very few of) any of the navigational type rallies, as all state, clubman, and 95% of club rallies are run as closed special stage rallies with either A-A timing or the ocasional one with A-B timing, depending on the organisers. We chose not to include pace noted rallies this year, as they do invlove more committment in many ways, hence why the majority of the state rallies and all of the clubman rallies in NSW are blind rallies. It is more to learn and invloves more time having to do the pace notes, and lets face it, if you want to do a pacenoted event, you should do the pace notes your self, or you are not really doing a pace noted event, more of a blind event with lots of calls.

Maybe we just have a lot more blind rallies to choose from so we don't need the pace noted ones to make up the numbers. And maybe in future years we might decide to have one pace noted round in to start with, that way people that don't want to run it can officiate and get their points, or drop it anyway, and in which case we would have to find an easy pace note drive on the same day type event such as the Lithgow rally, but seeing as Foster has pacenoting on thursday and friday, and rallying on saturday and sunday, this becomes a 5 or 6 day event for many people, which is not in the interest of what I think the excel series has. And I have a few more years than most of our newer competitors and I think I am more willing to do something like that than the others, so are mostly going of my perceptions of what the newer people want.

Going back to the original intention of this thread though, the classic event at the ARC is blind, is a seperate event so should not require race suits, offers good value due to the distance given, the type of event, the roads, the dinner and mixing throughout the event with the ARC drivers etc, so is worthy of consideration. The biggest conflict in it is that Glenn is running the state championships so as this wasn't originally in the calendar, is a bit harsh in saying it is now, although he would have had the same problem if it was originally in the calendar, but it wasn't, and if it was he may have chosen not to do the state series as he was missing an event anyway (probably not but thats not our call).

[Col Vic]

Ernie, you're sick !!! a MARINA !!!! I accepted a little left of centre with your Historic P76 idea, but a MARINA !!!!, please tell me it's not a 6 ! (ahh, terminal understeer !!)

As far as what events to run goes, each state has it's own needs. In Victoria, we support the State Championship (VRC). There are a number of reasons for this, better events, route charted road book, with 1 pace noted event - pace note on Saturday, rally on Sunday, generally higher safety - FIV's etc. We have been welcomed by the State Championship and are now an important part of it. Our "Clubman" series is a multiclub series (VCRS) which other than specifically exempted events, are required to be 50% navigation. The series is popular, often drawing maximum fields, so fitting another 7 or 8 Excels into it could be a problem. Several Excel teams have run some of the VCRS event, Emma ran in one at the weekend in the Pink Panther and finished 9th outright with Ross Runnalls in the navigators seat, it was also one of these events that Geoff Portman finished 3rd in (again with Ross in Emma's car).

It's entirely up to the competing teams, but everyone seems pretty happy with the VRC events so far. They cost more, but you get more.

Col

[ernysp76]

It's an ex-Tom Barr Smith car the one he came 10th in the Alpine a few years ago, yes its a 6.

[Crazy Dave]

So in many ways we are looking for the same sort of events, and the best way for you guys to find them is as part of the state series, whereas we have a few more options. But the overall feeling seems to be that the excel series is about new comers but it is also about other things, such as people getting back into the sport or finding a way to afford to keep running instead of leaving, or simply finding a form of rallying where they can be competitive with the best in the country for under a million dollars, a long way under. So we will always need to look at our current mix of competitors and soon to be competitors to pick events. I think that we have a good mix, at least our intention was there before the change of events this year, to pick events which were good events, more than if they are part of a series or not. I don't care about chasing state or clubman series, or else I would probably have built a mirage, but love the fact that we can pick the best events out of all that is to offer, which may be some state, clubman or even club events. Good roads, great atmosphere, good locations, friendly organisers etc are all some of the things that many of us look at in picking events, but everyone with their own bias, which means we may all pick a little differently, but we generally all match up pretty closely.

[AnnaR]

While I won't make this a long rambling post, suffice to say I think that there is a place for both clubman and state events (and yes it's comfortable sitting on this fence!). The dilemma for the Excels is that not only are they a perfect entry level vehicle, they are also capeable of being quick in their own right, not just in their class.

The clubman events are vitally important in terms of increasing participation, but don't underestimate the value in having a 'Comb* of Excels' at any given State round also.

The Excels have proven themselves to be competitive in class at state level events both in NSW and presumably in Victoria too and I'm sure that Hyundai gets at least a little out of having the cars at 'higher profile' events such as Lithgow. This is important in attracting sponsors and supporters into the Series which is vital for it's continued success.

Personally, I find that the State events give a good opportunity for all the Excel competitors to go up against the 'best' in NSW and not just be written off as a 'Clubman' class when the are a damn good all round package!

I'm not sure if any of that made sense, but in essence, State events are a great way to build the profile of the series and in turn attract sponsors and more competitors, but they shouldn't make up all the rounds....

I don't care about chasing state or clubman series, or else I would probably have built a mirage, but love the fact that we can pick the best events out of all that is to offer, which may be some state, clubman or even club events
Spot on Dave!

*this is my newly invented collective noun for Excels - a COMB, for they are a hairdresser car!! :) Now repeat after me a COMB of Excels